Project:Requests for deletion/Requests/2009/Category:Voting templates (2)

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Result: There was no consensus, not even roughly, to do anything here. The default result is Keep. NonvocalScream (talk) 20:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Category:Voting templates[change]

Category:Voting templates (edit · talk · history · links · watch · logs · delete)

fr33kman ^talk has nominated this page for deletion for the reason:

These templates really harm the building of consensus and encourage nothing but simple voting. They encourage people to simply put things like File:Symbol keep vote.svg Keep or File:Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose along with their signatures and no rationale as to their reasoning. Whilst the closing admin or crat can (and hopfully does) ignore such entries it would more helpful to the closer and to the project as a whole to have editors use full rationales why they feel a certain way.

Please discuss this deletion below, but keep in mind that you shouldn't vote on everything and that there may be options that are not just "keep" or "delete", such as merging.

Discussion[change]

Strong Delete, Burn With Fire, Sysop Salt and do much much more to the lot except {{info}}, {{comment}} and {{question}} as these are potentially useful outside of RfA/RfD/Consensus building situations. Gob lin 19:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC) I ♥ Kennedy!
File:Symbol keep vote.svg Keep - I like this templates. It makes it easier to see how many users said keep or delete in RfD's. I think the templates doesn't harm our project. Barras (talk) 19:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

"how many users said ..."?? Barras, RFDs are not about numbers, they are about rationales and discussion. Even RFAs are not supposed to be about percentages or numbers; they should be about consensus. These templates encourage poor reasoning. Let's nuke them and grow a real consensus! :) fr33kman ^talk 20:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It is easier for the closing admin to see (for an overview) what consensus is. Of course admins have to read the comments. Barras (talk) 20:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Then the closing admin doesn't need the templates or the bold words do they? ;) fr33kman ^talk 20:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

After reading the comments, it is easier to count how many users say what. Barras (talk) 20:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, closing an RFA (or any discussion) is not about counts, it's about consensus. More people could say delete these templates than say keep them, but consensus could still be to keep because more thought out reasoning was given. If all the people saying to delete them merely say delete and all the people saying to keep them give well thought out reasons, then the consensus would be to keep, regardless of the numbers. fr33kman ^talk 21:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Did I said, that only the templates count? I've never said so. Of course are only the comments important. But the templates help to get an overview. Barras (talk) 04:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Fr33kman, I think Barras is simply saying that it helps for a user to see what sort of direction a conversation is going at a glance, perhaps if just scrolling a conversation. This would be so one could tell if a discussion was totally going one way or the other if there are 20 comments that hold a certain opinion, while 0 hold the opposing viewpoint. If the discussion has quite the mix of both symbols, one can see that something is being debated and that the discussion seems split. hmwith τ 01:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

File:Symbol keep vote.svg Weak It's not that big of a deal. Just ask the person to give a reason. They could do the same thing just writing '''Support'''. Meetare Shappy ^Cunkelfratz! 19:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Why ask them to give a reason post-facto when getting rid of them would encourage them giving a reason in the first place. I agree with you that people can simply put Keep or Merge but they shouldn't really be doing that either. We should be talking about stuff. :) fr33kman ^talk 20:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Delete they serve little purpose to anything. Majorly talk 19:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Weak keep - In all honesty I hate these, but I've come to see that they do serve a bit of a purpose; namely, they make it easier for those unfamiliar with English to identify the nature of votes. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 20:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

But are we voting, or are we discussing? If they are unable to comprehend what the comments say, they should not be closing these. I could very well say "File:Symbol keep vote.svg Keep This is clearly not a notable thing, there are no sources to speak of and it looks like a hoax". It's the comments that count, which is why I think these templates are simply decoration. Majorly talk 20:23, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
"identify the nature of votes"?? Julian, we are not supposed to be voting; we should be discussing things as a group. These templates encourage a user to display the exact attitude you just displayed. Let's get rid of them and start getting genuine discussions going! :) fr33kman ^talk 20:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Folks, take a look below at the Port-a-protest RFD; consensus if being grown there and only two people have used these templates. I think these templates are not only unhelpful but actually harmful to discussions. fr33kman ^talk 20:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
And please look also at the Template:Hidespoilers-start-RfD - nearly all users used a template. Barras (talk) 20:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

And comments like "delete Burn with fire" and "delete this is an encyclopaedia" are low quailty and can probably be dismissed by the admin. fr33kman ^talk 20:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

We don't discuss about the quality of the comments here. Barras (talk) 20:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Sure we do, we do it all the time with replies such as "poor reason to oppose", "poor reason to keep", "poor reason to delete". It's not a reflection of the individual editors, merely the comments themselves. fr33kman ^talk 21:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

But opening an RFD on templates is not an effective means of stopping poor votes. Meetare Shappy ^Cunkelfratz! 21:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It's part of the process of stopping them; it's a starting point. fr33kman ^talk 21:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Some people will always have poor reasons, templates or not. Like I said in my vote, people can just write "Support" with no reason. If anything, the templates make it easier to tell what a vote is to someone who does not know English very well. Meetare Shappy ^Cunkelfratz! 21:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Then their vote really doesn't count for much, if there's no rationale behind it. Exert 21:23, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

File:Symbol keep vote.svg Keep - not doing any harm and are helpful in places like this - tholly ^--Talk-- 07:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Weak delete While I agree with Goblin, the deletion will affect the previous RfAs and RfD requests if the templates are deleted. If some solution is found, feel free to go ahead. Pmlin editor 07:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
File:Symbol keep vote.svg Keep - not doing any harm, and some of us like the images. I don't see how deleting these would address the problem - if these are deleted, you'll just get people typing '''Keep''' without a comment. Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 13:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Delete and I'm deeply troubled by the comments Barras made earlier on. If there are three delete !votes and 10 keep !votes, it's still possible consensus is to delete. Consensus cannot be counted. That would be like trying to make an apple pie out of verb tables, two totally different things. Consensus is key, counting is not Soup Dish (talk) 13:16, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

File:Symbol keep vote.svg Keep: I think they make it easier to see what opinion each editor has.--Gordonrox24 (talk) 19:45, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

File:Symbol keep vote.svg Keep - we need to keep a strong visual element to the SEWP and these help, even if they don't add anything to the quality of comments that follow them. --Peterdownunder (talk) 08:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Delete. Not only do they support voting, they also place extra strain on the server by being littered throughout SEWP (at least this is my understanding). Malinaccier (talk) 20:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Delete They encourage voting and not discussion. -Djsasso (talk) 21:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Delete Besides my personal opinions that I'm not a fan of these, they cause harm to the project and discussion. I think that they are unnecessary and encourage voting over discussion. There is no real reason for them, in my opinion. hmwith τ 01:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
File:Symbol keep vote.svg Keep - I often use them. Yotcmdr ^{=talk to the commander=} 18:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Outcome[change]

This request is due to close seven days after it was filed; that is on approx. Friday, 17 July 2009 at 20:22 (UTC), although it may be closed quicker due to WP:SNOW.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.