Project:Requests for deletion/Requests/2022/Category:Cities and towns in Italy
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The outcome of this request for deletion was to File:Symbol keep vote.svg Keep. There is clearly consensus to keep the categories in some form. Further discussion on this topic would be helpful, either at ST or on relevant talk pages --Griff (talk) 20:54, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
Category:Cities and towns in Italy[change]
- Category:Cities and towns in Italy (edit · talk · history · links · watch · logs · delete) · close request
- Category:Cities and towns in Sardinia (edit · talk · history · links · watch · logs · delete)
- Category:Cities and towns in Quebec (edit · talk · history · links · watch · logs · delete)
- Category:Cities and towns in Uttar Pradesh (edit · talk · history · links · watch · logs · delete)
- Category:Cities and towns in Haryana (edit · talk · history · links · watch · logs · delete)
Lights and freedom has nominated this page for deletion for the reason: Is there any reason to separate "cities and towns" from "settlements"? Most other countries and regions have "cities" as a subcategory of "settlements". I think the Italy categories could be renamed to just be "cities". For Quebec, maybe separate into cities and towns? For the states in India, they are within the category for "Cities in India", so maybe they could be renamed to just include cities and the other places moved to "Settlements" in the corresponding state category. Lights and freedom (talk) 18:57, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Please discuss this request below, but keep in mind that you shouldn't vote on everything and that there may be options other than "keep" or "delete", such as merging.
Discussion[change]
- File:Symbol keep vote.svg Keep to all. Where to begin.. For simplicity sake a single title is best. As each location has different names and legal terms for locations, formal settlements recognized by law all tend to get grouped together and non-formal settlements (or all if the 3 article rule is not met) stay in the main cat. Of those listed, there are only comunes in Sardina, those are their "cities", There is no such thing as a city in Quebec by law only villes. The term city is used in English but legally has no meaning (Neither Montreal nor Quebec cities are legally cities) In each of these areas (and many more), it is simpler to stay with the commonly used terms in English and not need to examine the local laws to determine what status each location needs to be listed as. Even in locations such as the United States, the actual meaning of the terms can vary. A city in Virginia is vastly different than a city in Pennsylvania. Each state normally has its own laws for determining what label goes where, but for general use, its widely acceptable to list Pittsburgh, PA and Virginia Beach, Va both as the same type of place even though by law they are not. Va Beach is an "Independent City" which is closer to a county in most other states while Pittsburgh is an example of a city in the traditional use of the word. --Creol(talk) 21:58, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Creol: I see your point that "cities and towns" is a simpler term. So a few questions:
- For Italy & Sardinia: From what I see, all of Italy is divided into comunes. There is no legal meaning of "city". (However, there is such thing as a metropolitan city, which consists of multiple comunes, and has its own mayor.) The other regions use "Cities in xyz", except Sardinia, which uses "Cities and towns in Sardinia".
- a) Should we rename them all to "Cities and towns"?
- b) Delete Category:Towns in Italy (and subcat)? I don't know how town would be defined.
- For all regions of Italy, Quebec, Uttar Pradesh and Haryana: do we
- a) Merge the "Cities and towns" subcategory with the "Settlements" category for that place, or
- b) Keep the "Settlements" category, which will contain only the "Cities and towns" subcategory inside it?
- For Italy & Sardinia: From what I see, all of Italy is divided into comunes. There is no legal meaning of "city". (However, there is such thing as a metropolitan city, which consists of multiple comunes, and has its own mayor.) The other regions use "Cities in xyz", except Sardinia, which uses "Cities and towns in Sardinia".
- Lights and freedom (talk) 23:08, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, a settlement is any place people live (or have lived in the past). They are usually broken down into 2 main groups: places with central governments and those without. (there would also be former settlements with the same sub groups) The Cities and towns covers all the places with governments no matter what the locally defined names are. while Settlements is the catchall for Cities/towns and everything else. In cities and town could be any subcats if the location needs them (Cities, Towns, Villages, comunes, Townships, hamlet, whatever) but if there is no need for this, all of the <whatever they are called> would go into cities and town. If both both groupings exist, then both the main cat "Settlements in <foo>" and its subcat "Cities and towns in <foo>" are needed. Technically it should be "Settlements with a local governmental structure".. in <foo> but that title is a bit too much and "Cities and towns" is easier for people to understand the gist of the grouping. I haven't done the research on what defines a town in Italy so couldn't say it is not a valid term of any part of the country. If any location has settlements officially designated as towns, then the category should be kept. --Creol(talk) 23:30, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, thanks for that info. I am changing my vote to keep for all these, and move Cities in Abruzzo, Cities in Apulia, Cities in Calabria, Cities in Campania, Cities in Emilia-Romagna, Cities in Friuli Venezia-Giulia, Cities in Lazio, Cities in Liguria, Cities in Lombardy, Cities in Marche, Cities in Molise, Cities in Piedmont, Cities in Sicily, Cities in Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Cities in Tuscany, Cities in Umbria, Cities in Veneto, Communes of the Metropolitan City of Cagliari, Communes of the Province of Nuoro, Communes of the Province of Oristano, Communes of the Province of Sassari, Communes of the Province of South Sardinia to the corresponding title with "Cities and towns" instead of "Cities" or "Communes". Lights and freedom (talk) 23:45, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Brain skipped a beat there.. "Settlements with a local governmental structure" would also be a municipality. As to the other changes, just make certain that the term city is not the correct term to use before suggesting a change. Also, If there is only one type of municipality in an area (everything is a city or everything is commune or a village or whatever, they are often just grouped together as such and that grouping is tossed into settlements. With multiple groupings (cities, towns and villages) then the intermediary step of municipalities is added. overall, (and @Auntof6 would be better equipped to confirm) I believe Simple tends to use municipality as the naming convention for the group of organized settlements. While I'm fine on the theory and issues of naming, she has a lot more experience with the day to day over the past decade. --Creol(talk) 02:52, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Back when we reorganized the settlement categories, we decided to use "settlement" as the generic category. That can cover cities, towns, townships, villages, hamlets, communes, and probably others. (Things it does not cover include counties and parishes.) We used the term "municipality" only where that (or the local translation of it, such as "municipio") is the official term used in the location. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Simple_talk/Archive_104#Municipality_categories. -- Auntof6 (talk) 07:41, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Auntof6 In regards to the regions of Italy, the widest category will be "Settlements in xyz". What should be the name of the categories containing all the communes, within "Settlements in xyz"? Lights and freedom (talk) 17:33, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Lights and freedom: As far as I can tell, comunes in Italy are subdivisions, not settlements. I infer that from the fact that en:Comune is categorized under subdivision categories and not under populated place categories ("populated places" being enwiki's equivalent of our "settlements"). If this understanding is correct, I would categorize Italian communes under geography rather than under settlements.
- Also: I'm not sure why your question was specific to regions of Italy, but those regions would not be under settlements. -- Auntof6 (talk) 19:42, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Auntof6 In regards to the regions of Italy, the widest category will be "Settlements in xyz". What should be the name of the categories containing all the communes, within "Settlements in xyz"? Lights and freedom (talk) 17:33, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Back when we reorganized the settlement categories, we decided to use "settlement" as the generic category. That can cover cities, towns, townships, villages, hamlets, communes, and probably others. (Things it does not cover include counties and parishes.) We used the term "municipality" only where that (or the local translation of it, such as "municipio") is the official term used in the location. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Simple_talk/Archive_104#Municipality_categories. -- Auntof6 (talk) 07:41, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, a settlement is any place people live (or have lived in the past). They are usually broken down into 2 main groups: places with central governments and those without. (there would also be former settlements with the same sub groups) The Cities and towns covers all the places with governments no matter what the locally defined names are. while Settlements is the catchall for Cities/towns and everything else. In cities and town could be any subcats if the location needs them (Cities, Towns, Villages, comunes, Townships, hamlet, whatever) but if there is no need for this, all of the <whatever they are called> would go into cities and town. If both both groupings exist, then both the main cat "Settlements in <foo>" and its subcat "Cities and towns in <foo>" are needed. Technically it should be "Settlements with a local governmental structure".. in <foo> but that title is a bit too much and "Cities and towns" is easier for people to understand the gist of the grouping. I haven't done the research on what defines a town in Italy so couldn't say it is not a valid term of any part of the country. If any location has settlements officially designated as towns, then the category should be kept. --Creol(talk) 23:30, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Creol: I see your point that "cities and towns" is a simpler term. So a few questions:
- File:Symbol keep vote.svg Keep per Creol. This should probably be kept as a meta-category though. --SHB2000 (talk) 12:09, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
This request is due to close on 18:57, 11 May 2022 (UTC), seven days after it was filed, although it may be closed earlier at the discretion of an administrator.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not change it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No more changes should be made to this discussion.